Published on June 11, 2010 By aLap In WOM BETA Builds

My main concern: there's a ton of research to be made, right from the beginning. I'm fine with having different layers of complexity getting branched out as I continue to play and understand a game. But I find it a bit overwhelming having to decide on a bunch of research items (being some of them very similar to each other), right when I'm starting to build my civilization.

For example, why separate Farming, Orchards and Beekeping? These are all food bonuses for my cities. If I have one city with an apiary, another with orchards and another with fertile land, I need to do every bit of research for these food bonuses, while research requirements increase every time. In the meantime, there's military to consider, and education, administration, taxing, housing, mining, advanced mining, etc, as well as magic and adventuring research, etc, etc... This is more of a hassle and less of a fun factor in my opinion.

Better, intuitive research is needed. New players who are oblivious to the game mechanics will find this a frustrating learning experience, with the AI most likely beating them to a pulp... for the wrong reasons...

Suggestion 1: add a recommended research feature.

Suggestion 2: add a 'food production' research to encompass all the different food bonuses. A city with a certain food resource will be able to harvest it immediately. However, only the pioneer unit can upgrade that food resource to its fullest potential (as in the civilization adapting to that resource and learning how to increase its output) taking a greater amount of turns for the first upgraded resource, but less for the subsequent ones of the same kind (message on first upgraded resource: 'Your civilization learned how to fully develop Apiaries! Next upgrades of the same resource will be much faster now!').


Comments (Page 4)
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on Jun 12, 2010

Kantok
For example, under Civilization you may have the subcategories of farming, production, economics, and housing.  You, as the Sovereign, decide that your people need to strengthen their ability to feed themselves.  You tell your minions to go focus their research efforts on "Civilization-> Farming".  They come back with one of the green, yellow, or red techs that would have been available for you to choose, but you never see the options.  They just come back with their discovery.  "Sire, we've figured out how to produce food from bees!"  You just got beekeeping. You want more, you keep your focus on Civ -> Farming and they go back at it and come back with another tech under that category.

 

This idea sounds strangely attractive. Not sure I'd prefer it, but it certainly sounds all right.

on Jun 12, 2010

Kantok
I apologize for my long winded response.  They always start as one simple point and balloon into minor essays. 
No need to apologize, as it is a good post.  I also suffer/benefit from the expanding response syndrome.

You make good points, and I think we have pretty much the same goal, just different ways to get there.  What you describe as a 'flaw' I think of as a 'feature' and that's something we'll have to agree to disagree on    (Viva la difference and all that...)

Anyhoo, thanks for your polite and well-reasoned reply!

on Jun 12, 2010

Juggzor
I'm not really asking for a tech tree, but at least info in research what tech we'll be able to research next after the current tech. Also tooltips when hovering over buildings in techs please, its quite hard to tell what they do until you have the chance to build them in a city. I think it'd make life easier for new players.
That sort of info will be added in and I agree it's a good thing.  It's not there now because this is more an alpha than the usual beta that we're used to, so there's a lot missing than we'd usually see.

And to you also, thanks for the polite and well-reasoned reply!

on Jun 12, 2010

The more that I think about it, I really like Kantok's idea about choosing an area to research, and getting a random tech in that area. Kantok, want to start a thread on it, and we can start working on some ideas for refinements?

on Jun 12, 2010

Juggzor
I prefer discovering and testing new strategies and approaches in a game rather than discovering what techs or units or buildings actually do. When I played Civ4 for the first time (several years after playing my last Civ game which was Civ1) just looking at the tech tree was enough to decide what to research, in EoW I need to play several games to make informed decisions. Without the meta info its just guessing. So I believe that the prerequisites or the following techs shouldn't be meta info, but instead it should be accessible to all players.

This is a general response since there's some good discussion going on here, but this quote sums up my thoughts pretty well.  I don't want to know exactly what techs are in any specific play session, I just want to know what can lead to what.  Right now if I want to make mounted units, or better yet a stable, I don't know what to research to get to that or if it's even possible.  It doesn't even have to be in the Research report, it can be put into the Elementalopedia.  I guess the way I'm thinking about it is, as I've said before, if I really want to know it I'll be able to find it and I'm going to have it memorized after a few games anyway so why not have it right there for me to look at for those first few games to avoid confusion.  The current system may have the effect of turning more casual players off from the game by making them feel like they don't know what the heck they're doing.

What was the other thing... oh ya.  I reserve the right to change my mind later, but I also don't care for this all or nothing way of handling research points and I expect it'll just get worse once there are five tech trees to research from.  I know its the way every game from GC2 to Civ4 handles it, but I dunno.  I just get this feeling that I'm cripping myself if I choose the wrong tech to research.  Maybe the feeling will go away as more tech is added and it's balanced.

Later,
LAR

on Jun 12, 2010

Beric01
Kantok, want to start a thread on it, and we can start working on some ideas for refinements?

 

Sareln did that for us.  Here

 

 

on Jun 13, 2010

Elemental is already going for a lot of different things. I really like how the RPG elements are being added into play. Families are a nice, intuitive addition. As for building my cities and the different structures, this requires a good deal of thinking in a good way; there is a noticeable pattern which will most likely become clearer as the game gets polished. With the critters that spam all over the map, most of them need to get nerfed 'cause it really sucks for my Sovereign and quests getting botched due to frequent critter encounters at the early stages.

Research is what really got my spider sense tingling. Mind you that I haven't been that immersed into the BETA tests and don't particularly like to dig deep into stats and number crunching. Being more of a casual gamer, I am more or less in the role of a noob that buys the game and gets to play it for the first time.

Research as it is doesn't feel 'right' to me. I don't mind different but I do mind about being confusing, counter-intuitive, frustrating... I've been reading a lot of talk and a lot of effort from testers into this area of the game. I like the ideas of a clearer tech tree, allowing multiple research, and simplify research for similar resources. But maybe this is simply something that could use a more conventional approach.

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